Episode 3: Frank Milstead

Colonel Frank Milstead, a distinguished figure in Arizona law enforcement, has dedicated over 35 years to serving and protecting his community. Beginning his career with the Phoenix Police Department in 1985, Milstead quickly rose through the ranks, gaining extensive experience across various divisions. His leadership capabilities were further recognized when he was appointed Chief of Police for the Mesa Police Department in 2010, where he enhanced operational efficiency and community relations. In 2015, Milstead became the Director of the Arizona Department of Public Safety, where he earned a unanimous confirmation vote by the Arizona State Senate. Notably, he pioneered the Arizona Border Strike Force to improve border security and combat transnational crime. His career is marked by a commitment to transparency, accountability, and innovation, earning him numerous accolades, including the Torch of Liberty award from the Anti-Defamation League and the Medal of Valor from the Phoenix Police Department.

Frank is currently running for the position of Maricopa County Sheriff.

Transcript

Bob: Well hello, my name is Bob Plaschke, welcome to First Response.

For most of my adult life, I've had the privilege to spend time with and support emergency responders. First Response, this podcast is an effort to get behind the badges of these very brave folks and understand the challenges that they face and how they handle them. This podcast is sponsored by Pepperball where I have the honor to serve as the CEO.

Pepperball makes a non-lethal alternative to guns that police agencies across the US use to keep themselves and the public they serve safe. 

My guest today is Colonel Frank Milstead from the great state of Arizona. Frank, you've been a police chief, you've been a colonel running the Department of Public Safety for Arizona, and now you're running for the sheriff of Maricopa County, which I think is the fourth largest county in the United States. You must love policing. You must love this to go back and do this again. Tell me. 

Frank: No, I actually do love law enforcement. I love serving. I love making a difference. I happen to be good at police leadership and the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office was in need of somebody to lead them through three court orders and a monitor from the DOJ. So I put my hand up and I said, put me in coach. I can take care of this for you. I've negotiated and highlighted different issues throughout my career with the federal government, with state government, with tribal governments and local governments. So I'm just here to make sure that the women and men that serve at the Maricopa County's office, Sheriff's office are respected. They have a good morale, they're properly compensated, good equipment and technology. 

Bob: Well, and appreciate that you put your hand up to run. As I'm sure you're learning, this is the first time, is this the first time you run for public office?

Frank: It is the first time. And yes, I'm learning every day and it's a little sketchy at times. There's things that happen that I would tell you that were not predictable to me. But as I move forward, I realize that these are just hurdles of running a countywide campaign. 

Bob: You know, I've always thought about that. I think that's kind of the highest, one of the highest kind of not honors, but the highest privileges is to run for a public office to serve your community. But in today's politically charged environment, it doesn't feel as, I don't know, aspirational as you would think. It feels kind of a little bit more difficult. What have you enjoyed about running for office and what have you not enjoyed about this process so far?

Frank: The positives are going out and meeting people and listening to their concerns. And they're all over the board. I mean, everyone has different issues. Learning that a lot of the questions that come your way, and probably the majority of questions that come your way through these meetings and appearances at the legislative districts are personal in nature. There's some event that's happened in their life that they want resolved. I would also tell you that it surprised me that there's not more critical thinking about, you know, what they want, who they want and why they want them. I tell people all the time that they'll say, well, I'm supporting so and so for whatever office because I like them. They're a nice guy. And I said, well, I know a lot of nice people that I don't want to, you know, to be my police chief or my sheriff. And I'm a nice guy and I want to be a factory Porsche or race car driver but Porsche never calls me because I don't know anything about racing cars.So you have to know something about what you do. You need to be qualified to run the office. And it's more than just being a nice guy. 

Bob: No, for sure. From a kind of speeds and feeds perspective, Maricopa County is, I think is right, is it the fourth largest county? How many citizens and how many sworn officers would you be overseeing if you won this election?

Frank: So the county is the fourth largest in the nation. It's 9 ,500 square miles. It has a population in it's basically Metro Phoenix area. So it's the largest population in the state. And there's about 4 .5 million people, 4 .7 million people that live in Maricopa County. The Sheriff's office is bifurcated into two large pieces. One is the actual patrol function, the deputies. And there's about 1600 positions there that, and they're not all filled. They're very short staff. They've had retention and recruitment issues based upon a lot of different factors that we can talk about if you want. And then there's the jail system. There's four county jails that have 7,200 beds, which 6,000 are occupied. But again, they're 600 corrections officers short which makes everybody in the system, no matter what side of the bars you are on at risk. And it's a safety issue that needs to be addressed rapidly. 

Bob: And how big is the budget? How much, how much money does the sheriff oversee? 

Frank: $450 million. 

Bob: That is a hell of a big company, right? That is in effect, what would be a mid -sized publicly traded company on wall street. I think you're right. I think you need to be better than just a good guy to manage a half a billion dollar budget I mean, I guess the good news is that you've done this before right I guess managing the city of Mesa and and managing the state of Arizona you've managed budgets or police forces of that size before

Frank: Yes, absolutely actually on scale the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office is a smaller scale than Arizona Department of Public Safety, albeit the big difference is the jail itself and the complications with feeding 6 ,000 people three meals a day and doing their laundry and providing security and medical help and all of the things that go along with that. And there's some interesting issues that exist there that I've already identified. But DPS, I had state aviation, state laboratory service, and state gang task force state gang task force, statewide SWAT service. So on a scale it's simpler, but it's still very complicated. 

Bob: Yeah, I know a half a billion dollar company in whatever context is complicated. And to your point, you know, I'm biased. We know each other for the last almost 15 years. So I do think you're the right candidate, but I do think it makes sense to have someone who's managed something like that in terms of size and scale. You don't want someone who's nice, you know, that's you need more than that as a qualification. One of the things that I think is so interesting about you, Frank, that I just happened to know is that you come from a family of law enforcement. And in fact, I think your father was the was the Colonel of the Arizona Department of Public Safety, if I'm not mistaken. 

Frank: Yes, that's correct. My dad joined the Phoenix Police Department in 1960. Stayed there 20 years and Governor Babbitt in 1980 asked him to lead the Arizona Department of Public Safety Which he accepted and stayed there nearly nine years and then after that when Governor Mofford was put into office after the impeachment of the governor, Ev Mecham My dad stayed on with her on her cabinet to help her govern the state. So public safety and basically public service, something that runs deep within the family.

Bob: I mean, when you were growing up, I mean, and that's one of the questions I wanted to get into as I was growing up, you know, to be the police chief, to be someone of that position, just a tremendous amount of respect and a tremendous, you know, kind of force in the community with, you know, a lot of goodwill, you know, there wasn't, you know, wasn't a lot of what you would call mixed reviews of policing back then. And I remember growing up feeling just a tremendous amount of respect and admiration for the police. That must have been the way I assume, given that you went into policing, you must have looked up to your father in that context. If your father was alive today, what would he say about the changing nature of policing, given that it has changed so much in the last 20 years?

Frank: So when I was going through my father's belongings after he passed away in 1996, I found a questionnaire that he had prepared when he was going to test to be the chief for the city of Phoenix prior to Governor Babbitt appointed him to run DPS. I've also read many, many articles that were published through the Department of Public Safety, Digest, which was their magazine, and also internal documents that my dad prepared. And so for as much as you think things have changed, the basic needs of a law enforcement agency have stayed relatively constant. I mean, he needed more budget dollars, he needed more staffing, they needed newer lab equipment, they needed to replace rescue helicopters. Those...the kind of the meat and potatoes of a law enforcement agency are always the same. You're trying to be a good steward of tax dollars, but on the other side, you're trying to staff adequately for not only the safety of the community that you police, but also for the safety of the women and men that you lead. The changes, you know, really are about technology. And one of the things that's interesting about technology is people will always come to your office as the leader of an organization and tell you, how you're gonna save money and staffing hours with this technology. And very, very few times does technology actually save you staffing hours or money. It usually requires more human beings to be involved in managing whatever that technology is. But my first piece of technology in 1985 was a speed loader. We went from a drop pouch where six bullets dropped in your hand and you fed them into the cylinder of your revolver. Then we had a speed loader and it would put all six in at a time. And, you know, they gave us tape recorders and audio tape investigations. We had Polaroid cameras to document things on film. And all of that stuff has evolved, as you know, through your lifetime. But the transparency of law enforcement is probably the biggest change. And we see that through body worn cameras, through media. And I think there's pluses and minuses to that and it's affected law enforcement in a number of different ways. But if he was alive today, I think what his quote would be was, I'm glad I served when I did because it was simpler.

Bob: Well, and I think that's right. I was chatting with someone my last podcast and talking about policing and the nature of policing. And it was actually the this was the deputy director of Community Affairs for the Chicago Police Department. And I was quoting him a statistic that less than 40 % of the US has trust and faith in policing, in the police, and I think it was the 20%, 18, 19, 20 % of minorities have faith and confidence in policing or in the police agencies, which must be different than when your dad was serving. And what do you think that attributes to this eroding trust?

Frank: Two things, I think that the media is trying to erode the trust in many of our institutions. And in my mind, it's almost the George Orwell dystopian theory that eventually they all erode all the trust and will only listen to them. I don't think the media has accurately or fairly portrayed the work of the women and men of law enforcement. I think they have tried to get the the masses to believe there's systemic racism in law enforcement, that leadership covers up for the misgivings of those they lead. And all of those things, from my perspective of 35 years of law enforcement in Arizona, these are good, hardworking women and men. Are there people that make mistakes and do things that are wrong and evil? Absolutely. that's no different than any profession on the planet. The human dynamic is always alive and well. I can tell you that I've never seen systemic racism, but it's a narrative that continues. And then when there's a video that's produced that supports that notion, that is what they play on primetime news. And they play it over and over and over again. And if you look at an agency like Phoenix PD, they produce about 7 ,000 body worn camera videos a day. And you'll see one, maybe two of theirs a year where somebody does something that's inappropriate, but they don't talk or publish all of the other amazing things that they do. So I think they continue to work on the subconscious that all cops and all people in law enforcement are not sound and are not good human beings. 

Bob: You know, it's it. No, I agree. I mean, in my work running Pepperball, you know, I talked to members of law enforcement every day. And to your point, I do I have I met a couple of people that I, you know, would think maybe aren't a good fit for policing, maybe. But over the course of a decade, I've met, you know, thousands and thousands and so to your point is a very small percentage and in 99.9 percent of the people I meet are Incredibly good people who are there to serve who put their life, you know on the line every day.  It's an incredibly, you know challenging and And and scary job of which you know to your point you don't do you don't do if you're if you're not there to fundamentally serve and no, and I do think that's right. I do think, unfortunately, the rise of social media can more dramatically exaggerate the exception. And to your point, unfortunately, with sensational reporting, you lose all the good things that happen day to day. To your point, 7 ,000, so that's like 7 ,000 interactions with citizens every day that, to your point, 99 .9 % are positive outcomes.


Frank: Yeah, absolutely. And it's just unfortunate that that's happening. But again, we also see it on a national level with the erosion of trust in other major institutions. And we're not alone. And it really, at the end of the day, it's up to us as law enforcement leaders to speak the truth about what we do to make sure it's published when we can and to represent the community and those that we lead at the highest level. And if we fail at getting the message out and publishing the positives and the good things, then that's on us. You can't just sit back and go, well, they're saying bad things and that's mean, and I'm going to just sit in my room. You have to get out and lead and make sure that people know the truth. Bob: You know, speaking of a totally great, speaking of positive things, I remember I was in your office years ago. And this is when you were the Colonel of the Arizona Department of Public Safety. And I noticed a photograph of your father with a young child who was kind of dressed on a little motorbike, like a mini motorbike. And you told me the most amazing story, which I'd love for our listeners to hear. Frank: Yeah, so in 1980, my dad was appointed as the DPS director in March and shortly thereafter a group of men from a couple different law enforcement agencies came to him as they were trying to provide a dream come true for a young boy who had leukemia by the name of Chris Gracious and his mom Linda who is still a friend of mine to this day. Chris was dying of leukemia and his dream was to be a police officer and they had asked if there was a way to make that dream, that wish come true. So my dad and his staff, with the help of a number of people in the agency, they went to John's uniforms and had a small Department of Public Safety uniform created, a hat. They bought him a battery powered police motorcycle.They picked him up at his hospital room at Good Samaritan Hospital in the DPS rescue helicopter and flew him to headquarters where they put him through a miniature motor school. And then he went up to the director's office and was sworn in as a DPS trooper and spent time with the staff and with my dad. And that picture you saw is when my dad was with him in the office. And seven or eight days later, Chris passed away from leukemia, but his wish was realized and that was the nexus for Make -A -Wish Foundation. And they started granting wishes out of the DPS director's office for the first bit and then it gained traction and now it's worldwide. But Make -A -Wish, the first wish was there at Arizona DPS with my dad and his staff.

Bob: You know, and I think that is, you know, in my mind, that's the untold story of police officers every day, right? I mean, every day they're having positive interactions, they're saving people, they're stepping in and solving challenging situations. And unfortunately, those stories like the Make -A -Wish story don't really get a lot of press and you don't get a chance to hear them. And is that, that would seem though, that'd be to be part of your role as the sheriff or if indeed you are elected sheriff is to tell those stories, is to kind of reach out and I guess do a better job of letting the community know what policing is. Is that fair? 

Frank: Without a doubt. And the interesting part about being an elected sheriff, now I've been a police chief and I've worked for a city manager and a mayor. I've been the Colonel for the state police and worked for a governor and being the elected sheriff, it's the highest ranking elected law enforcement position in the nation. And I think it gives you the bully pulpit to go out and speak the truth and talk about what happens. And I hate to use the word market, but it really is marketing what law enforcement does without the fear of repercussion from someone that is above you that disagrees or doesn't want you to talk about certain aspects. And, you know, in my mind, if you're honest, you can go toe to toe with the Lord. And the bottom line is if you, you know, the truth is a constant in this world. And I don't think that a lot of police chiefs are allowed to put themselves out and talk about what happens because of liberal politics or other things that happen. 

Bob: No, well, and good that you're stepping up and you're trying to put yourself out to your point that you're trying to become a sheriff and then become the sheriff and then step in and be that voice. What is the nature of the job? different as an elected official versus being appointed? I mean, what let me ask, what are the differences being elected versus being appointed? 

Frank: I think it's just that one really main thing is that you answer to the people, you report to the people, you were there as the elected sheriff working for them. It just gives you the opportunity and you know it's a constitutional position. If a governor comes out with you know edicts that they want people to follow what we refer to as executive orders There's no requirement that a sheriff do that. They they don't answer to the governor. They don't answer to anyone but the people there they have the constitutional authority to uphold the will of the people so it's just a little bit different than a normal position. And if you go back to the executive orders that the governors issued across the nation during COVID with mask mandates and shutting down businesses, the sheriffs in Arizona did not follow those. Well, there was one that followed some of them. He actually posted that if you saw your neighbors out or doing something, you should report them, which is really crazy. But the majority of them, they did not tell businesses to shut down and they didn't enforce mask mandates. They went by the will of the people, which is who they work for.

Bob: Interesting. I want to turn back the conversation back to policing and kind of today's policing versus kind of historically what police did in the past. In the past, it was very much law enforcement. And there were other agencies that dealt with mental illness or homelessness and other social issues. It feels like today that as those other institutions have been defunded or have less resource. It feels like a lot more responsibility falls to the police to deal with society's issues. A, is that true? And how does and has how it does policing or has policing changed to address that much wider unexpected scope of responsibility? 

Frank: Yeah, so I think you're absolutely correct it's changed and the actual issues are, you know, 40 some odd years ago, the federal government got out of the job of dealing with mental health issues and probably 15 years ago, states began to get out of it and closed state hospitals and did those kinds of things. And I think that's one of your issues with homelessness and mental illness issues is there's no governmental body that deals with that at a high level. They've kind of washed their hands of it. They've left police officers and firefighters to deal with that on the street. *coughing* Excuse me, sorry, on a street level. 

Bob: I'm sorry. 

Frank: I'm trying to try not to die here on your podcast. 

Bob: Too much campaigning. 

Frank: Yeah, apparently I talked too much, but the so those issues have been left, you know, and then, you know, the legalization of marijuana and the non prosecution of drugs and that all plays into that same thing. But the police and fire have been left to deal with that.We have not as leadership and as government have not done a probably an adequate job of issuing equipment to deal with those things and how to deal with them. And we actually asked police officers to enforce court orders from judges to put people in for mental evaluation. And it's a challenge because of HIPAA laws. They don't know who they're dealing with. It says that there are risks to themselves or others and they don't know if they're building firearms in their basement and explosives or they're playing in the cat box. I mean, it could be anything. But at the end of the day, it is an incredible challenge to deal with those issues when that is not what we trained or hired these people to do. 
Bob: Well, you know, there's, there's probably a lot of people out there listening to this that say, how can somebody of your age, right? You've been doing this for many, many years. How do you, and you were brought up in a time when police didn't have to do this, when the issues were different, how does someone stay relevant in that context? I mean, how do you do as a...middle-aged white man, do you really understand the issues that policing presents today in this kind of new Policing 2 .0 context? 

25: 23 Frank :I think the key to that is that we have to encourage those who serve to understand that empathy and compassion is important. And remember, empathy is not feeling sorry for somebody. It's feeling sorry or understanding what their feeling. It's that piece that misses in a lot. And to take the time that's allowed in that day -to -day contact with people, that if time is on our side and we can do that, that we work through those issues and realize that, albeit the book says that we were all created equal, some people struggle with their abilities and their addictions. So I think it's really just about an empathetic approach to those in need and that there's people from all walks of life in society. And I think that's one of the beauties of law enforcement is that we are bipartisan. We're not a partisan group. We're here to serve the needs of everybody who asks. When you pick up the phone and call 911, the police department or the fire department is the only people on the planet that only want to know two things, and that is where are you and what do you need? And in an emergency in an urban environment, we'll be there in about four or five minutes and we'll take care of you. And we don't, there's nothing else we need to know. We don't need to know who you love or pray to, or if you got a credit card, we just, we provide world -class police service to everybody who asks as quickly as we can.

Bob: You know, that is exactly why I love serving emergency responders, firefighters and police officers. To your point, they're the only people that don't care, that don't ask, and they're the only people that show up. There's a bond through the level of service they provide, a bond with the public that is unique and special and it needs to be protected and celebrated, frankly. And particularly all the officers that put their life on the line every day to do that. Again, my opinion. 

If you had to summarize the two or three biggest challenges that you'll face if indeed you're elected sheriff or the policing the police chiefs across the country face, what are the two or three big issues that they face over the next five to 10 years in policing?

Frank: Yeah, this is probably the easy question because this happens every day on the campaign trail. And the number one unequivocal problem is the court orders that hang over the agency. So back in about 2008, 2009, Arizona legislature passed a law which was Senate Bill 1070 that and you probably if you've heard it on a national level, it was kind of that show me your papers law where we could arrest and detain people who we believed in law enforcement were in the country illegally. And there were all kinds of predicates that you couldn't violate. You couldn't use their language or the color of their skin. And there was always a very, very complicated. And at the time I was with Phoenix and we took a very pragmatic approach to it that hey, this isn't our priority. If you run into somebody who you believe is in the country, you know, illegally through through a criminal predicate, then contact your local ICE agent or if they're incarcerated, they'll go through the 287G program, which was in the jails and it was manned by people from ICE, from Immigration and Customs Enforcement. But the Sheriff's Office under the previous couple of leaderships ago started doing immigration roundups and they were rounding up primarily Hispanic people, you know, dishwashers, roofers, you know, people doing landscaping and they were ordered by the court to stop and they didn't stop quickly enough and long story short is they were sued by a guy named Melendez and for racial profiling and the court, the federal court issued a mandate that they meet certain requirements. Well, they didn't respond quickly or accurately enough and that's up for debate. But in 2016, the same judge and the same court issued a second order. And then in 2022, they issued a third order. And so there's this huge problem with retention, recruitment, with staffing, with dollars and everything else because this federal monitor that's been assigned is, is sucking about $40 million a year of Maricopa County tax dollars away in this effort to meet the requirements of this court order. And so in short order, it doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree with the court order, it's been issued by a respected notable judge and it has to be met. And I don't know that the department as a whole over this last 10 or 12 years has actually put 100 % of their effort into solving that so they can move forward. So that issue has to be dealt with.

The next thing is what do you now do with money that you have? And I think it's just that. Now you have new money that's been freed up and you need to work on your recruitment, your retention. They have pay scales that aren't being met. There's people that have been there for years that have never topped out in pay. They're number 15th on the pay scale in Arizona law enforcement. So that needs to be fixed.

And then your staffing levels in the jail. And I just want to hit the jail thing. This is kind of an interesting point is that right now in the jail, there's 6 ,000 inmates and 1200 of those people. And remember there's 600 corrections officers short. So everybody's safety is at risk. But 1200 of those people have a bond where they owe the County of Maricopa less than $1 ,000, but they have no way to pay it. So the taxpayers continually to house, provide medical help, feed cloth secure a thousand people that owe less than one thousand dollars each. So are 1200 people. So you go there's a hundred and twenty thousand dollars owed to the to the county and we're spending ten times that to house these people. So there needs to be a trustee program put in place where they can clean the jails, they can do yard work around the county, they can work in the motor pool, they can do something to earn money so they can get out of the jail, quit being a burden on the taxpayers. But the other part of that is a warm release. So they have a driver's license, they have a food handler's card, they have medicine assisted therapy for their addictions, whatever it is, so they don't recidivate immediately and come back. And those are the kind of things that need to happen. 

Bob: Well, and what you're describing is, I think what policing has evolved to, which is, how do you deal with, you know, now that you have a much larger mandate absent of other state agencies managing mental health, homelessness, folks who are below the poverty level, how do you manage and, and get those people back into productive lives? It's a much larger mandate. And, and to your point, how do you do it from the will of the people versus under a constraining court mandate? And then how do you become a responsible steward of your taxpayers' dollars? 

Frank, it is a challenge, but clearly you've spent your life, your entire life, including watching your father being prepared for the challenge. I'm obviously a supporter. I'm excited for your campaign. Good luck. I know it's going to be another hard few months, but good luck in the campaign. Thank you for all that, what you've done, all the service that you provided. 

And one just last question, which is Pepperball. We'd like to donate a small donation as a way to say thank you for what you've, for spending the time with us today. Great. If you would let me know what, who you'd like to donate to.

Frank: Well, that's easy. We talked about it earlier. My donations usually go to Make -A -Wish, so I would tell you just Make -A -Wish is where I'd send that. And as far as you and Pepperball are concerned, you know that I'm very excited about the proliferation of the use of Pepperball for patrol procedures and that it protects people and police officers and it helps people change their attitude about their bad attitudes or bad things they want to do. And I think your company and your leadership is important. And I appreciate your good wishes on the campaign. We will know if we win the primary here sometime after July 30. And if that's the case, then it's back to the grindstone. And we campaign until November 5th and make sure that I get the opportunity to lead the organization out of some of these of problems and empower the women and men to go out and do world-class police service, to be on offense, and to know that they're protected and they're safe and they're respected by leadership. 

Bob: Well, again, Frank, thanks so much for taking the time. We really appreciate it. 

Frank: All right, sir. Thank you. Have a great day. 

Bob: Well, folks, I've known Frank or Colonel Milstead for the last more than a decade and such an honorable man and to see policing through his eyes and through his father's eyes and to see what 40, 50 years of policing looks like, it's really helped me better understand the people behind the badge and why they serve and how they think about the challenges that they face. Policing is such an important thing incredibly difficult job and to lead a police agency, whether it's a small agency or a sheriff's office or a state office, it's just enormously challenging. And I and I think we all are very lucky that there are folks like Colonel Milstead out there that have stepped up to that challenge, have served their communities. And again, it continues to be my privilege to be able to serve them and support them in their mission. 

That's it today. Again, super grateful that you had a chance to sit and listen to Colonel Milstead and listen to us. I'll get back to my day job, which is working and supporting emergency responders and running Pepperball. And we'll see you next time.